Loading...
08-28-86 Public Works Comm MinutesFINANCE/PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER/COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT August 28, 1986 4:00 P.M. • Councilmen Palmer, Nystul, Manning, Saverud and Schindler in attendance. Mayor Kennedy, DPW Hammer, Surveyor Zavodny, Construction Inspector Van Dyke, Sewer and Water Superintendent Hyde, Clerk Halver, Ed Gallagher of Community Development and Roger Hopkins of the Daily Inter Lake also present. MISC. FINANCE COMMITTEE ITEMS - 1. Tax Increment funding audit: The Mayor, staff and Clerk asked to ._look into this rather than having an audit. Ed Gallagher is looking at it. C. Palmer said he would like to see the example of someone from the staff picking up the cards and giving the report - by the September 15 meeting. 2. The budget allowed $18,000 for Flathead Regional Development and Council was told they could not legally make that change. The question now is how to clean up the budget change made by the Clerk and Mayor. C. Nystul stated he would not give in without a fight. The Clerk and City Attorney and Mayor do not have the authority to change a budget adopted by the Council. C. Nystul asked for a game plan. C. Palmer said that a decision should be made about whether at a certain point in time the -Council wou-1d. give- FRDO notice that the City is withdrawing within the calendar year, or when the budget is set - that is the type of decision that needs to be made. 3. C. Palmer stated that by the Mayor naming the Committee Finance and Administration he assumed that it would also address administration problems, such as what the Council does or administration actions. • 4. Airport fact-finding committee should have a report sometime next week. 5. Procedure for signing invoices: C. Palmer said he would like to review this and have Chief Stefanic, Attorney Neier, the Mayor, and Councilmen Nystul, Ruiz, and himself included. There is a question concerning the legality of signing an IBM sheet listing the invoices rather than looking over each invoice individually to see the purpose for each expenditure. Chief Stefanic stated to C. Palmer that he thought the Councilmen were sticking their necks out a mile in signing the IBM sheets. C. Nystul felt that the judgement ought to be put on the accounting branch of the City rather than the law enforcement for accounting procedures. Clerk Halver said that the law states that itemized claims shall be prepared, and an itemized list shall be included to or referred to in the minutes and signed by the Clerk or Finance Committee. He brings all the claims and the itemized list and they have a choice of which they want to sign. There have been some attorney general's opinions and some court cases that concluded that Council review and looking at the claims is a rubber stamp sort of thing. Once you have set a department budget that gives the authority to spend. It is a gray area. Basically, what you sign is the addendum to the minutes that is the detailed list of claims. You have whatever right or responsibility you want to assume if you want to sign the individual claims, but the law does not require you to do that. C. Palmer said he would like to have DPW Hammer included in the review. C. Nystul stated that the Finance Committee should set the procedures for bill paying. It is assumed that when • they sign the printout that it is a listing of the bills and that source documents have been reviewed. Signing the document or signing the claim does not attest to the ability of the person signing it to know what they are signing. C. Palmer felt that the procedure and protocol should be clarified. FINANCE/PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER/COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT August 28, 1986 Page 2 REVENUE SHARING EXPENDITURES - Request from Chief Stefanic to purchase $5,000 worth of radio equipment. This will be presented to Council. DOG CATCHER - Louie Kimbrell is retiring September 20, 1986. After paying his accumulated vacation and sick leave there is $1,229.00 left in the dog catcher salary line item for the year. At present the Police Department is handling complaints and when possible are calling the County for help on an emergency basis. The Committee recommended moving the dog catcher budget into the Police Department if that is where it should be, but that it should not stand alone. The Council needs to decide if they want a dog catcher. This will be brought before the Council. BILL CLEMENTS BILL - Mayor Kennedy read an explanatory memo to refresh memories. The Committee recommended that Mr. Clements sign a waiver of protest to annexation, the General Fund Building Department be charged for the bill because of the error in the Building Department, and that the sewer hook-up fee ($350 because it was before June 1) not be waived. .This will beareported to the Council. SURVEYOR'S AIDE - Surveyor Zavodny explained that he had an excellent aide but his requests for additional funds went unheeded and the aide moved on. He stated that a good aide cannot be hired for $4.61/hour. There was discussion of the possibility of using one of the meter installers or Gerry • Edmondson for the position. Fred pointed out that he did not have the time to run a training school and something more permanent would be best. C. Saverud pointed out that if the rate is not sufficient the position rate should be adjusted in the contract while it is still open. Fred explained that the seasonal employee status was accurate but needs a bit more qualification for this particular seasonal position. Local surveyors are paying almost $6.00/hr for the same service. C. Palmer said there was no more money for this and it should be referred to the Personnel Committee. C. Nystul concurred with the need but that the solution must be done within the budget. DONATION POLICY - Montana Rural Techinical Assistance Program has asked the City for a donation. Construction Inspector Van Dyke stated that the City has used some of their services at no cost, and Surveyor Zavodny said they have had excellent service with good response. The Committee felt it was a descretionary item for the Mayor, and was perhaps no different than belonging to other memberships. They felt he should call other cities to research their policies and report back to the Council. FIRST ALLEY WEST - Jay Billmayer is seeking clarification of whether the project is going to be done, if so when, and the financing. It was reported that upon completion of the 5th Avenue West project the new trunk line will be totally in service. The City is looking for bids for the necessary work behind Godfather's (approximately $10,000) but the contractors are busy. The work involves a manhole and minor work along the mall line. C. Nystul stated that there are some unallocated funds from Phase II and he will prepare a • report for the September 2 meeting. The point was made that if tax increment funds were to be considered it must come from the Public Works funds set aside for this year. FINANCE/PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER/COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT August 28, 1986 • Page 3 BIDS FOR WOODLAND SID - AT this point the City is waiting for WQB to respond to Carver's plans. The Council has approved the creation of the SID. This project cannot wait until spring and getting the bidding process started may prod a response from EPA. Council approval was for resident funding but they would like 55% EPA funding if possible. The sewage on the surface must be addressed as soon as possible. This will be presented to Council. PHASE II, REDUCTION IN RETAINAGE TO 5% - The Committee recommended approval of the reduction to the Council. QUESTIONS REGARDING WATER DEPARTMENT PURCHASES - DPW Hammer stated that there have been some questions concerning the recent purchase of a compactor and a nuclear densometer. The compactor is a vibratory roller compactor, a.smaller, one-man version od a steam roller. It was purchased last year for $7,000 although it lists for considerably more. It is 29+" wide, a perfect size for the trench dug by the backhoe. It is necessary because you can't get production our of a smaller unit on trenches. Supt. Hyde explained that the emphasis on both purchases is the attempt to do a better job than in the past. Good compaction saves settling problems. The nuclear densometer uses radioactive material to measure soil density in pounds/cubic foot. The ideal is for 95% compaction or better. Sewer and Water funds split the $4700 cost. The densometer gives much better control • over our own department as well as for contractor's working in the right-of-way. Rental of this machine runs $50-60/hour so it will pay for itself in a short time. C. Palmer asked if these purchases should have been reviewed by the Committee. C. Nystul stated that the budget was not item specific but the Committee did appreciate being kept informed. C. Palmer stated that considering the shortage of funds it might have been better to wait. DPW Hammer said that in the past the policy has been lump sum line items. The Mayor was asked to set up a policy for handling this type of situation. A narrative accompanying the budget enumerating this size of equipment expenditure and who has the latitute to make the expenditures would be helpful. The comment was made that it was not logical to cut back people and upkeep and buy this type of equipment. 5TH AVENUE WEST - DPW Hammer reported that the two blocks by the high school were paved today and one intersection is done. The City staff had to correct intersection design and 80' of curbing. There was extended discussion concerning the following items and a detailed set of minutes covering that portion of the meeting is attached. 1. Hole dug at DPW Hammer's request to inspect matting. 2. Intersection design problems. 3. Curbing design problems. 4. Liability when changes are made. 5. Center and 5th intersection problems. • 6. Clarification of responsibility for payment on work at Center and 5th intersection. 7. Difference of opinion on seeding time schedule. 8. Owner/engineer/contractor relationship and chain of command. FINANCE/PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER/COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT August 28, 1986 • Page 4 The discussion of the above items was instigated by contractor complaints to members of the council. The staff made a strong point that their actions were in the context of doing what was best for the City in the long run and saving the taxpayers money. Contractors and engineers make mistakes just like staff does, and it is the job of the staff to make sure that corrections are made. C. Palmer asked that DPW Hammer define his point of view and clarify the responsibility for payment in a letter to TD&H. DPW Hammer stated that if something unforseen and unreasonable presents itself in the course of a project his policy is to compromise and split the difference - to work with the contractor. Mayor Kennedy stated that he was glad this discussion occurred because it showed the caliber of the City employees and how they are on top of things and doing a great job. C. Palmer asked Terry Richmond, a resident and engineer who was present, if the relationship between the City and the engineer and contractor on this project was reasonable and he responded that the relationship seemed appropriate. The owner (City) has every right to direct what he wants done, but he must be prepared to pay for it. • C. Palmer asked that copies of the minutes be sent to Pack and Company and TD&H. He also requested a review of the project as a whole with the Public Works Committee, Construction Inspector, Surveyor and DPW Hammer when the project is finished, and that the City's observations of the completed job be filed for reference on awarding of future jobs. He also suggested that the City invite proposals from three engineering firms for future projects. DPW Hammer will see that this occurs. FIRE HALL REMODELING - Building Official Jackson requested approval for final payment of $28,300 with 0 retainage and the Committee agreed to recommend approval to the Council. METER INSTALLERS LAY-OFFS - The two meter installers have been notified that they will be layed off on October 6. The budget is to stand as is. TERRY RICHMOND COMMENTS - Mr. Richmond voiced his concern for the City doing construction work and felt that they should do maintenance only and commented on sealing and other maintenance items he felt were lacking. ajg 0 FINANCE/PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER/COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT August 28, 1986 i5TH AVENUE WEST DETAILED DISCUSSION ADDITION TO MINUTES This detailed discussion will begin with DPW Hammer staing that the City had 2 blocks and one intersection paved by the high school. We could have had three intersections done except that they were not engineered properly and the City had to correct them, so the intersections could not be done. C. Palmer stated that he had spent two hours down there on Friday and would the Committee mind if he stated his questions after talking to Pack and Fraser. He wanted to stop by and see how things were going, and when he asked Pack Ronnie was upset about the whole thing. C. Palmer said that this was Pack's point of view: There was a hole required by DPW Hammer to see that the matting was in place. It was C. Palmer's understanding that if the matting had not been down the City would not have to pay for the digging, and if the matting was there the City would pay because it was our perogative to test it. It turned out that there was matting down. Then C. Palmer was there when the next hole, about 4 feet away, was dug to test again. He askedwhy,'when one test was done was it done again four feet away. Construction Inspector Van Dyke said he had marked for the first hole and he wasn't sure where it was and then DPW Hammer came down and told them where it should have been. C. Palmer asked if he had reason to believe that even though the engineer had said they had seen it put down and that it was there . . .DPW Hammer said • the engineer did not see it put down and that is the reason he questioned it. The engineer said his inspector saw it go in, but the inspector told DPW Hammer that he had not seen it go in, and the City did not see it go in. So it was a different story. Construction Inspector Van Dyke said that Tom Sederstrom (engineer's inspector) told him they had put it in but he had not been there when it went in. The reason for the concern was that there was a cracked concrete pipe coming from the storm inlet and no evidence of fabric when DPW HAmmer saw it, and at the next inspection it was all covered up. DPW Hammer stated that he makes a habit of going to the site for fifteen minutes in the morning and at least that each afternoon to check on the project. No one could tell him if the fabric had been put in between his two inspections. So he felt he had good reason for the test. C. Palmer said that Ronnie 'Pack had complained that he couldn't seem to get out of the intersection. All the pipes are coming across and everything else. We want to get done and get out of this intersection. The concrete guys are quite upset because they had concrete on its way, the forms were made, the patching was done, the design was there, the crew had worked overtime to get it done, and this morning we are told to cancel the concrete and remove the forms because of the flair - it will leave the curb up and the water wouldn't drain and it was poor design. C. Palmer's question to Mike Fraser was why was that change made at that point, why wasn't it reviewed on the paper and the recommendations followed at that time instead of the day the concrete is going down. Mike Fraser responded that that morning DPW Hammer had come by and said that this wasn't going to work, rip it out. First of all, C. Palmer said, I have to respect you (DPW Hammer) for doing what you think is is this. and secondly I have to question why it wasn't reviewed on paper before this. DPW Hammer stated that it was reviewed on paper. Construction Inspector Van Dyke explained: We wrote a letter with 11 items (April 22) and one item FINANCE/PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER/COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT 5th Avenue West Detailed Discussion • August 28, 1986 Page 2 was a request to remove the lengths and put in regular radius'. There was correspondence back from TD&H saying that they thought that it should be done this way and they would go ahead and do it their way unless they heard from the City. He was not sure that the City had replied in writing. DPW Hammer stated that on April 22, 1986 a letter was written from Mike Fraser to Ben Van Dyke and he basically said that Ben's analysis is correct on radii locations and they felt it should be put in for safe turns for passenger cars. He asked for the City's final decision. The City.did not respond in writing, but he was told when he came over to discuss a list of the items that DPW Hammer didn't want them in, Ben didn't want them in, and Fred didn't want them in. That should have been scratched and should have been the end of the discussion. DPW Hammer said that to elaborate a little on that, by DPW Hammer having the two ten foot sections of conrete removed and not allowing them to pour more he saved TD&H about 60 feet of curbs. They had to rip out an additional 80 feet of curbing themselves because it was wrong - improper design. Surveyor Zavodny explained that the engineer was not doing the job he is being paid for so the staff went down and corrected his error. Period. No more and no less. They engineered the curbing wrong and it won't drain water. The staff went down and found the problem and advised them of it. Mayor Kennedy said that they had met with Mike Fraser for two and one • half hours yesterday evening on these same problems and that he had seen these problems. Surveyor Zavodny stated that all the problems out there are being caused by other than City crews, and there are a lot of problems out there. The City is alleviating and solving most of them. C. Palmer stated that one of his questions to Mike Fraser had been when the City steps in in a program we are paying him to engineer and assume the responsibility for so we can sue you if it is not done correctly, what happens to his liability? Mike responded that he had none - the City assumes it as soon as they start changing the program that he is implementing. C. Palmer asked if that was accurate and DPW Hammer stated that it was not. He went on to explain that the City is the owner and has a right to make reasonable requests whether it is engineering changes in design or simply because we don't like the appearance, or whatever as long as we are willing to pay the toll. Or if they make a mistake, they pay. In this particular point they made the mistake, they pay. C. Palmer summarized by asking if of the things that had been talked about the City was going to pay for the two test holes which were a reasonable assumption on DPW Hammer's part. C. Schindler asked what would happen if there was a problem later on, couldn't Mike Fraser just sit back and say that the City changed my plans and it is no wonder it doesn't work? DPW HAmmer said the City did not change anything. The only thing that has been changed in this entire job that DPW Hammer is aware of is the business with the curbs. C. Palmer said that Mike Fraser had stated that this was going to cost the • City a considerable amount of funds because of the grading and surveying to get the grades up and the forms in, and the City was going to be back billed for all this work that wasn't done. DPW Hammer said that in the Mayor's office yesterday TD&H responded the amount was $240 - and that was before they realized it was their mistake. If that is a considerable amount of money . . . FINANCE/PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER/COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT 5th Avenue West Detailed Discussion August 28, 1986 • Page 3 C. Palmer said that was not what he had been led to believe. DPW Hammer said he doubted that it will even be $240. C. Palmer asked that they move on down the block a few feet. He asked Ronnie Pack why it had taken so long to do Center and 5th. So they went down to look at it. At that time Jensen was loading up their heavy equipment and heading out. He said we had this all dug out, and said with disgust that the City has this main that you can't shut off - eight blocks back before it can be shut off. With this system, with all the digging, everyones fingers were crossed (Mike was not with them and C. Palmer asked him about it later) it is really surprising that that thing hasn't broke. They had their fingers crossed over the liability. It is a real maze of pipes and this was special equipment to dig it up. When it was dug up it was determined that we probably should go first class and come into the main trap so that all these things could be brought together and a sophisticated system put in. DPW Hammer had requested a bid that was $14,000+ for 60 feet.- It was also pointed out that it needed another 30 feet and the bid was $2,200 more and DPW Hammer said no, we won't do it at this time. They have since waited the two weeks, ordered the special pipe in, which was setting out at Pack's (and which they say the City must pay the restocking fee on), they are covering back up the hole, and they say the City has now assumed all the liability for that pipe if it should vibrate and break. He was told that it would undermine the mall parking . lot as well as the new construction that goes down 5th. DPW Hammer said he would give a synopsis of what took place and let S/W Sutp. Hyde get more into detail. He stated that the first time around they wanted $25,000 to do this job that he estimated was less than $10,000 - more like $7,000. So he told TD&H that there was no way the city was going to pay $25,000 for a $6,000 - $7,000 job. So he went back and talked to the contractor and came back with a bid of $17,000 and said the City was a fool not to do it for that price. He said it wouldn't give any more details except to say that he knew what the job could have been done for. You add 15% on to the contractor's cost (what the engineer is allowed to make on this) and 15% of $6,000 is not $17,000. So he told Mike Fraser there was no way the City was going to pay that kind of money for it, he would have the Water Deaprtment do it. C. Palmer asked why we didn't have the Water Department do it. S/W Supt. Hyde stated that a change was required in that intersection because of the way the engineer had the plans drawn up. Construction Inspector Van Dyke said that TD&H designed the sanitary sewer pipe right in the middle of the water line that was installed last fall. They had time and they should have known it. Supt. Hyde stated that that was where it had all started. Mike Fraser said that there was a problem because the water line and the manhole could not occupy the same space. Originally TD&H proposed the change including 30 feet of ductile iron pipe (16"). When Pack looked at TD&H's drawing he saw it showed 30' but for formulating his price and making it easier on himself he used 60'. All that was shown on the drawing was 30'. The contractor who was putting in the sewer looked over the intersection and said it would be • alot nicer if we could cap both ends, take out 90' and he could then whiz right through. C. Palmer said that it had been explained to him that if the City didn't do this we would have old connecting to new - new, old, new. FINANCE/PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER/COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT Sth Avenue West ➢etailed Discussion August 28, 1986 • Page 4 Supt. Hyde explained that the pipe that was to be removed was put in about 1974 and was in beautiful shape. The only benefit to the City is that we would be replacing an old 16" valve. It also included relocating the 8" line that is connected to the manhole. That is basically the whole change. The $14,500 was high but it really worked out to everyone's benefit to do it so Sutp. Hyde told Mike to go ahead and have them do it. It was then that the --contractor said that for his convenience we would like to go further. There was a big meeting at TD&H where everyone agreed that it was the thing to do, so we asked for a price on that - which was $25,000. He said it was his under- standing with Mike that the change from 30' to 90' was at the contractor's convenience, to make it less risky for him and assist construction. C. Palmer asked if he had never heard a $14,000 bid or a $2,200 one. Supt. Hyde said the $2,200 was the difference between the original $14,500 and the $17,000 that the second bid was lowered to. Supt. Hyde said he knew what their budget looked like and he couldn't look Mike and Carmen (Meter installers) in the eye and spend $25,000 to replace a valve in the intersection., Given the shape of the budget he felt the benefit did not fit the cost. As far as the integrity of the pipeline, it is ten years old but it is asbestos cement and is fine. When questioned about the shut-off valve problem Supt. Hyde said he would like to buy the valve from Pack and section it in. It is true that that 16" valve needs to be replaced. He has kept the City crew out of the intersection on purpose so that Pack could not say that the City held them up. C. Palmer asked if the City had indeed held them up for the two weeks by saying we would do the project and did not. Construction Inspector Van Dyke said we did not for even a minute. C. Palmer asked if the City was paying the restocking fee on the materials. Mike Fraser told him that the City is going to be charged considerable funds for the delays, the ordering of the pipe and the other expenses involved. He would like to see the bill. Supt. Hyde said he did give verbal authorization to do $14,500 worth of work, they ordered he wasn't sure how much material, but the City should only be responsible for the original 30' if they are responsible. They ordered the full-blown version at their own. We need the valve one way or the other so he would like to purchase that from Pack. He would have to see the billing to see what exactly is on it. C. Saverud asked whether the City documents it's position on paper. DPW Hammer said that normally if we want to make some sort of change we will send a letter. TD&H confirms everything with a letter. He said he could not imagine TD&H operating any other way - to order $25,000 worth of inventory without some sort of change order from the City. C. Saverud asked if there was a standard operating procedure that identifies what we do when we do it so we can track it back on paper? Construction Inspector Van Dyke said that things that things needing changes are done in a letter. C. Palmer said he wanted to put DPW Hammer on the spot and asked him if he was comfortable with Phase I on 5th Avenue. He responded absolutely. What about Phase II. DPW Hammer said sure. When you are looking at 2 million dollars worth of project and the minor problems other than the contractors • complaints because he happened to have heartburn - it doesn't justify a bad job. The sewer main and water lines and everything are done properly. He stated that his point was that he feels bad that this Public Works Department, FINANCE/PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER/COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT 5th Avenue West Detailed Discussion August 28, 1986 • Page 5 which he feels has one of the best staffs in the State of Montana, that every time they go out and try to save-taxpayer's dollars we get accused of all kinds of crazy things. They get bad-mouthed - and he said he was up to here with it, and so were Ben and Fred. His point is that his staff could play the game and go out and try to find mistakes, too - and they don't even have to look for them, they are right there. And the City is paying engineers $100,000. His twenty feet of ripping out curb is nothing compared to what the engineer had to rip out - and he was _right in the first place. C. Palmer said he wanted to put it in perspective: When you are spending public funds you are going to be open to criticism. He thinks that it is good that the Mayor was sitting here, and he was, and C. Nystul had set through alot of it, and they want to know for the record the quality of work that the City is doing. The next question he asked was whether DPW Hammer was satisfied with the condition Center and 5th will be in with all the maze of pipes, the shut-off on the water pipe, when that project is done it will be to the City's best interest, DPW Hammer said he.couldn't say because it was still open. He said he had just left there with a different department of Public Works who is also interested to see that things are done correctly, and their conduit was ripped out. He stated that he has not one time talked to the contractor on this job - nothing. If there is a problem he went to Ben or Fred and told them to contact the engineer. His traffic signal and sign guys went over to the Center Street intersection and Pack has ripped • out the conduit. Jerry and Allan asked DPW Hammer to take a look at it. He stated that he did not go up to Purnel Whitehead (Pack and Co.) who was at the scene, and say are you going to replace this conduit? He said he may have siad very loudly, I wonder if Pack is going to replace this conduit so that Purnel could possibly hear and walk over. But nothing was said. One of the workers said no they were not going to replace it and Jerry Diegel responded that someone was going to have to replace it because it has been ripped out. At that DPW Hammer stated he told Jerry not to worry about it he would talk to Glen about it and would contact Mike Fraser. So right now we have a big open mess with spagetti all over the place, they have the manhole where the conduit was. He said he was sure he would not make them remove the $55.00 manhole that is already in place, but they certainly are going to be responsible for putting the conduit back, and the loops that go to the possible future traffic signal there, and the wiring that was there. So at this point, before they fill the hole back up DPW Hammer would want to look at it again and again and again, but up to that intersection he has no problem with the job. You are looking at a major, major project and basically the contractor has done a good job and it has been a good project. C. Palmer commented that he buys a $25.00 shirt and finds a rip in it and he couldn't see how you could do a $2 million dollar job and not have any problems. DPW Hammer said the only hassle he has had was with the alley being closed off (some staff members have had a few hassles) so that no emergency vehicles could get to about 16 homes. After two days of going through the proper channels for several days he say Jim Lynch (Pack's owner) on the job and did say to • him that if they did not have the alley opened up by noon he would shut the job down. It was open within half an hour. This was a safety problem. FINANCE/PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER/COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT 5th Avenue West Detailed Discussion August 28, 1986 • Page 6 C. Palmer asked DPW Hammer if he thought that the City's relationship with the engineer was okay and he responded in the affirmative. There are differences of opinion and there are mistakes in a project this large, but that is nothing personal. Construction Inspector Van Dyke pointed out that the City should not be paying for their mistakes. 5th and Center is still not done. C. Palmer said he would like DPW Hammer to send a letter defining the City's point of view and statement of what we feel our responsibilities are and what theirs are going to be on these subjects. They need to know where we stand and where this bill is coming from and who is paying for what. C. Palmer stated he did not want to see the invoices come through. DPW Hammer said that TD&H had already acted on all that had been discussed except the 5th and Center issue (settled in the discussion last night which included the Mayor) and DPW Hammer has told Mike Fraser that he had some responsibility whether it is 100% for the design, or half of it - he would have to think about it, see how the intersection progresses, talk to Ben, talk to Andy and Fred before he makes a decision. DPW Hammer siad that the Surveyor probably disagreed with him, but he didn't feel you could expect the engineer to know what'was under the ground and you have to take a chance. TD&H took a chance and lost, and now they are coming back to have us pay for this failure. C. Nystul added that another specific along this line is that the engineer depends on the utilities, who may saythat their conduit is encased in concrete, and they did and there is concrete, but there is aditional lines on top of the concrete. DPW Hammer said that when something comes up that is unforseen • or unreasonable, and you sit down and try to figure out who is going to pay, the best latitude he has always tried to take is to compromise and split the difference. DPW Hammer said he had told Mike Fraser that at the very best he felt that the engineers owed 50% of the problems at this intersection. C. Palmer asked who did the computing of the billing back - does this create a precarious situation where the engineer says I will bill you $50 when I didn't expect you to pay $25 in the first place. DPW Hammer explained that at this point they were ready to pull back on the amount of inspections being done and how he questions bills as they come through. He received one today that he didn't sign because it showed $600+ for travel and he didn't know what it was for and he hoped that it wasn't Thomas driving up here and charging the City for it. TD&H does itemize how many hours - surveyor, senior engineer, etc. Construction Inspector Van Dyke said he lump sums so many hours for inspector, etc. and he had requested in the beginning that they itemize how many hours were they doing what - more detail - but they never did that. Mayor Kennedy stated that he was glad that this had happened because he got to see the quality of personnel that the City has working for it and he was really impressed with these guys- They are on top of their jobs. Surveyor Zavodny said he wanted City Council to know that contractors and engineers make mistakes also. The staff hears every time the City personnel has a problem, but he wanted them to hear about the other problems and there are hundreds more on other jobs that .they should have heard about. How informed does the City Council want to be? Every job has its problems. DPW HAmmer said there was one other thing he wanted to discuss: he had • heard through the grapevine how the Public Works Director and the Public Works staff is causing problems on the job. One in particular was how Ben and he FINANCE/PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER/COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT 5th Avenue West Detailed Discussion August 28, 1986 Page 7 cost the City because of the change on the grass seed for $4,700. He stated emphatically that they do not make decisions based on what they feel. They had knocked on doors and talked to people - there are people that are not going to be in town after Sept. 15 when the engineer wanted to do the seeding, but who will be there in August and will be glad to water. We didn't take our chances, we talked to the people and made arrangements for watering. Those are the type of things that the Public Works Department does. We don't sit around and say, well, the specs say we can't seed until September 15 - it won't do any good if no one is there to water the seed. He said he had said it before and he would say it again, that he had the best staff that he could possibly ever want to have right now, and they are doing a very good job, and he doesn't mind people criticing as long as he had the opportunity to defend the decisions that were made. There was not a thing that any of these guys or he has done that has cost the City a penny - on the contrary over the last two years they have probably saved the City $200,000 - $300,000. If people would have listened to them he felt they could have saved that much again. He stated again that he felt the guys had all done a super job. C. Saverud stated that when the project is all done the PUblic Works Committee in particular, and maybe the.Council, ought to sit down and review with Surveyor Zavodny and DPW HAmmer and the Construction Inspector the whole project. There has been allusions to other things here - just for our own sake in the future when we solicit proposals from engineering firms and make • those determinations it is sometimes based on whether the particular firm has had all the work lately, or hasn't had any work for awhile. He pointed out that sometimes the decisions are not based on the most appropriate criteria. He suggested a written critique in the files based on the City's observation of a completed job and the working conditions so that when we come to another job we will have a way to evaluate. DPW Hammer agreed. ajg •