03-13-86 Public Works Comm Minutesr
• March 13, 1986 PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER COMMITTEES 9:30 A.M.
Chairmen Ruiz and Nystul and Council Members Palmer, Hafferman, and
Schindler present. Mayor Kennedy, DPW Hammer, W/S Supt. Hyde, Surveyor Zavodny,
Construction Inspector Van Dyke, Mike Fraser of TD&H, Dennis Carver, Richard
Seddon (106 5th Avenue West), and Roger Hopkins of the Daily Interlake also
present.
PHASE II - Mike Fraser explained, with the help of a map with the various
components colored in, Phase I reasoning and how and what it would correct.
Phase II was designed to relieve present problems and provide for future
needs. It will eventually carry all flow from North Kalispell. C. Palmer
explained that because of dangerous conditions in 1st Alley West the City
is "damned if we do and damned if we don't" do Phase II. C. Ruiz said it
was his understanding that there would be two trunks and with only one what
would the City do if it failed. Mike Fraser responded that the probability
of failure with a new line was extremely remote. DPW Hammer said they could
have two trunk lines by increasing the size of the lst Alley West pipe, but
it would triple or quadruple the price of doing 1st Alley West. There was
some discussion originally of two trunks when the plan was to sleeve the
alley, but when the City was unable to correct 1st Alley West with a sleeve
it ended the discussion of two trunks.
Storm Sewer was discussed. The new storm sewer in 5th Avenue West will
go to the collector on 7th and through the treatment ditch and into. Ashley
• Creek. The ponding allows settling of sediment before the water goes into
the creek. C. Ruiz questioned fighting environmentalists and WQB over Ashley
Creek and said it might be better to put up with the flooding. Dennis Carver
explained the process of approval he had gone through on this system. Mike
Fraser indicated there was no criteria for disposal of storm water, no limits -
just an increase of existing drainage. C. Ruiz said that a little or alot
of flooding is just an inconvenience and not really a big expense to the
residents and correcting the situation is not worth the great expense and
having the EPA come down on the City in a few years. DPW Hammer pointed
out that if the storm sewer portion of this project is not done it would
increase the existing problems caused by run-off in combination storm and
sanitary lines backing up into basements. C. Ruiz asked again if it had
to go into Ashley Creek? Fraser explained that Ashley was the natural drainage.
The Mayor asked if the City was required in the future to treat storm water
could it be run through the plant. It was expalined that the separation
of storm and sanitary is important and that running it through the plant
was against every policy of the EPA, not to mention that the plant could
not handle the increased flow.
DPW Hammer said there were several things in the plan for Phase II that
were not needed: 1) the water line to the Justice Center could be done at
a later time by City crews, and 2) the storm system on 5th Avenue West between
loth and llth Streets needs to be done but he objected to the water and street
reconstruction being included at this time. Mike Fraser thought that because
llth is an arterial this connection should be finished. DPW Hammer responded
that the City would be able to do it this summer.
PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER COMMITTEES
• March 13, 1986
Page 2
DPW Hammer also proposed that with the Contractor tearing up the street
from curb to curb the City should have the Contractor bring the street to
within 5"-6" of grade and have the City crews finish grade and pave. This
would serve to build up the Gas Tax and Special Street Maintenance funds
because the salaries and materials would be paid for from the bond and tax
increment for Phase II.
C. Ruiz objected to the City crews paving 5th because he questioned
how the work would get done in the rest of the City. The street reconstruction
program can be cut back to 1812 blocks and since they would be paving only
on 5th it would not require the same amount of time as totally reconstructing
the street.
There was extended discussion of equipment usage costs, savings to the
City, the fact that the City doesn't work for profit, depreciation of equipment,
and the need for accurate cost comparisons between City crews and contractors.
DPW Hammer pointed out that the figures come out very well in favor of the
City. C. Nystul concurred with'the water line deletion and the llth Street
deletion if the Street Department can do the work this summer, but disagreed
with the paving of 5th by the City crews. DPW Hammer explained that he had
just spent a considerable amount of time planning the projects for this summer
and he is convinced the City crews can do it. The dollars saved in Street
• funds would help rebuilt the funds that are in bad shape rapidly. He stated
he felt the City would be derelict in their responsibility to the taxpayers
if it was not done this way. C. Palmer said he would normally agree with
C. Nystul but in this situation the Street funds need help. C. Nystul asked
how it was going to be a gaining situation when the City would only be recovering
actual cost. C. Palmer explained that there would be no cash flow out of
the Street funds during that period. The only alternative is to shut down
the Street Department to let the funds build back up. DPW Hammer added that
on June 30 there will be a cash balance in the Street Department of 0. If
the department doesn't draw on the account for a six month period there will
be at the end of that time $100,000 in Gas Tax funds. He reminded the Committee
of the Central Garage situation when he arrived and the fact that he used
the same idea to straighten it out. It is no longer in the hole. The Mayor
pointed out that this was the same concept that the Council had agreed to
at the work session. C. Schindler said that financing the Street Department
from the bond was not a free gift - somebody is still paying for it. DPW
Hammer responded that it was better to keep the money in the City than to
send it out of town with a Contractor.
Mike Fraser suggested leaving the paving of the Center to 6th Street
portion in the contract so that it would be done in time for school opening.
DPW Hammer doubted that even the contractor could finish it in time for school.
Width of 5th Avenue West was discussed at length. C. Schindler brought
up the newspaper article. Mike Fraser said he had misrepresented it, that
the first block was 41'. C. Schindler said there was no rationale for it,
• that traffic would be no different when the mall was finished than now because
of other routes available. Mike Fraser explained that a transition was needed
from four lanes to two lanes going south. PWD Hammer mentioned traffic studies
showed a possible traffic signal at that intersection in the future.
PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER COMMITTEES
• March 13, 1986
Page 3
C. Palmer pointed out that 2nd Street was a collector and the first two blocks
were necessary because of the heavy usage. C. Nystul said that there was
sure to be a business on the corner in the future and there would be need
of a parking lane. C. Schindler objected to creating a freeway in front
of houses that have been residential and Mike Fraser responded that at present
it was a thoroughfare using a cowpath and it presented a traffic hazard.
Richard Seddon, a resident of the second block of 5th Avenue West, said
that no one with any sense parks on 5th Avenue West now. He could see the
justification for a 41' width for the first two blocks but would rather not
have it that way. He said to use Center Street for a collector and leave
5th 31' wide the whole way - if not the City would have the same situation
as in front of the Employment Office. He thought that making 5th a one-way
in conjunction with a one-way on 7th was a good idea.
DPW Hammer said he would like to make his last comment on this subject
of the width of 5th Avenue West. He said the Public Works Department spends
40 - 50 hours a week with the Director and several other people who do not
just look at 5th but also North Meridian and the Highway Department, talking
traffic signals at Idaho and Meridian. We spent hours a week for two years
on this putting together input from the Highway Department, from the traffic
engineer hired from Wyoming, and we're not just talking about that intersection
• but about the whole project - doing our job. We can make mistakes sometimes
but we don't want to see the taxpayers rates go up. You have a very consciencious
staff. He said he brought the Council the figures on the WWTP and showed
it would be a million dollars in the hole in three years - so we're not trying
to stick the taxpayers with dollars. The staff is trying to do the very
best they can - they don't react on "I think this is going to work or I don't
think this is going to work". He said he was sorry he had to say this but
he put in thousands of hours on this project and that intersection, as well
as his staff and a professional traffic engineer. He also talked to several
other engineers in town who have been here a long time. So for him to say
he doesn't think the City needs a 41' - it would be a bad way to do anything.
C. Palmer explained that some of the confusion may have come from the
fact that the first block is not the 100 block, but that the numbers were
below 100, making the second block the 100 block. That is where Mike Fraser
got the statement about the 100 block.
There was additional discussion of traffic engineers and studies and
considerations for the mall. C. Schindler stated that if the first two blocks
are to be 41' he would vote down the whole project. C. Nystul suggested
that perhaps the Council should take a wait -and -see attitude, leaving the
100 block at 31' using the existing curbs, and if several years down the
road it was determined that 41' was needed they could go in and widen and
replace curbs. DPW Hammer said he did not have a problem with that but that
he wanted it noted that the Public Works Director had recommended 41' at
this time. C. Palmer pointed out that the Council had agreed to both the
• blocks being 41' already.
PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER COMMITTEES
March 13, 1986
is Page 4
The Committee concurred on the removal from the project of the water
line to the Justice Center and the paving of 5th from loth to llth, and also
agreed to present to the Council for discussion the paving of 5th by City
crews and the width of the first two blocks of 5th Avenue West.
Additional Storm Sewer Discussion - C. Ruiz asked for a breakdown of
the $418,000 storm sewer cost portion of the project and went on to list
deletions of pipe, manholes, excavation in excess of sanitary excavation.
Could not save $418,000 because the excavation costs are divided between
the water, storm, and sanitary and would have to be picked up elsewhere if
storm were not done. The storm will be paid for out of tax increment and
assessments. It was pointed out that the Council has had for some months
a breakdown of all this information. C. Schindler asked Dennis Carver what
would happen if the City didn't do this prpject this year. Dennis replied
that with the fragility of lst Alley West it would be a serious problem if
the line collapsed. There was discussion of long range planning, timing,
availability of funds and opportunity. The City.is trying to deal with a
disaster before it hits. S/W Supt. Hyde asked if the mall lines weren't
constructed to use the new trunk line. Carver responded that temporary
manholes hooked the mall into the old main until the new one was ready.
• Mike Fraser is to meet with Attorney Neier on when the agreement with
the Contractor for Phase I can be signed.
STREET RECONSTRUCTION PROGRAM - DPW Hammer explained that Montana Street
had not been but should be included in the off -site improvement funding and
suggested that perhaps the $150,000 for 5th Avenue W.N. would cover it. The
Committee agreed that it needed to be done and that tax increment funding
should cover it.
AUTHORIZATION TO GO OUT FOR BIDS - DPW Hammer asked for authorization
to go out for bids for fuel, gravel, asphalt, and curbs and sidewalks. The
Committee was in agreement and this will be brought to the Council.
FRONT END LOADER - DPW Hammer explained that the Street Department needed
both a front end loader and an excavator but that there was only funds in
revenue sharing for one so he would prefer getting the front end loader this
year. The Committee agreed that he should go out for bids. This will be
presented to the Council.
CONSTRUCTION STANDARDS - The revisions of the standards are done and
the Committee was asked to take some time to look over them and comment.
C. Ruiz asked if contractors were allowed input and Surveyor Zavodny assured
him that they were and that their suggestions were used whenever possible.
WINDWARD WAY EASEMENT - Don Arthur wishes to give the City an additional
10' easement for the widening of the road. This would change his setback
• to 7' rather than the required 15'. The present street is 40' and was previously
accepted by the City. Surveyor Zavodny recommended that if this is always
going to be a dead end there would be no problem, but there was a need of
more information of future plans. Mike Fraser said that the City had approved
PUBLIC WORKS/SEWER AND WATER COMMITTEES
March 13, 1986
Page 5
the preliminary plat for Windward Way with the condition of an additional
10' on the street. The City could request the users to pay for the additional
width as access to Developer's Diversified property. It was decided that
the City should accept the easement on three conditions: That Mr. Arthur
1) waive the right of protest to any future SID's or ordering in of sidewalks
and curbs, 2) pay for the cost of the survey, and 3) obtain a building setback
variance. C. Ruiz asked Surveyor Zavodny to write a motion for him to present
at the Council meeting.
CENTER STREET CHANGE ORDER NO. 2 - Dennis Carver explained that the
Finance Committee has approved but that Council had asked Public Works to
review it. The Committee approved paying Change Order No. 2.
C. Hafferman asked if it was the developer's responsibility to see that
signals and widening of the streets, etc. was done, then why is the City
paying for the mall off -site improvements. C. Ruiz answered it was because
the City had sold out to the mall a long time ago.
HIRING OF EMPLOYEES - Mayor Kennedy said that the Council had indicated
that they wanted to be involved in the hiring of employees. His question
was in what way did they want to be involved. It was decided that the Council
should have access to the resume's received and that the times of the interviews
• should be posted so that the Council would have the option of attending if
they so chose. DPW Hammer and the Mayor explained that the interviews for
the Street Superintendent would be done now and the selection made so that
the new superintendent can be a part of the planning for this year's construction
season, but that he would not be hired until July 1.
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