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09-15-86 Gaming Commission Minutes0 GAMING COMMISSION MINUTES COUNCIL CHAMBERS SEPTEMBER 15, 1986 The Gaming Commission met at 3:00 P.M.,in attendance were Mayor Kennedy, Committee Members Grainger and Schindler, Police Chief Stefanie, City Attorney Neier, Detective Stotts, Kent Frampton of Cavanaughs, Buck Torstenson and Irvin "Red" McQuade of the Outlaw Inn, Art Lindlief of Pancho Magoo's, John Erickson of the Black Angus, Bill Lincoln of the Bulldog, Mary Ann Francis, Secretary Columbia Falls Gaming Commission, Roger Hopkins, DIL, Butch Larcombe, Missoulian, other interested parties, and later, Councilman Palmer. Mayor Kennedy called the meeting to order, stating that on September 8th it was reported to him as Chairman of the Committee that there were apparent violations of the gaming laws in three Kalispell establishments. He informed the establishments by letter on 9/10/86 that a meeting would take place on this date to discuss the complaints. These included a $100 limit per game on table games, video bingo and keno games, apparent aggregation games and posting of table rates. He acknowledged an error in that letter and asked recipients to disregard the 5% limit referred to in paragraph 3. The Mayor asked for comments on the letter regarding violations. Buck Torstenson stated that his establishment was notified over two months ago that they were in excess of limits on prizes, that was corrected and he • did not feel that the Outlaw operation should come under the letter. Chief Stefanie advised him that if posted practices have been stopped and that posting removed, then he is satisfied. He was told that was done sometime ago. Art Lindlief felt that Pancho Magee's didn't come under the letter, either. Chief Stefanie stated that the competition in gaming activities lately was one reason for informing his establishment -and the fact that there had been an earlier problem -he felt they should put on notice. Detective Stotts explained that the aggregate pot limit and rate procedures do not fall within the state law; these practices draw business away from other establishments. Lindlief stated that he didn't think Stotts understood what they were doing with the tournaments. He said it would be better to come and talk to the gaming firms rather than have problems show up in the paper --and that County Attorney Ted Lympus apparently didn't have any problem with the advertisements. Red McQuade stated that as a dealer he wanted the Commission aware that he has been in the PD office and asked for regulations, he has 3 sets now. He has gone to Helena to look at State regs and doesn't see anything wrong with the Outlaw's operations. It seems to him that pot limitations should be increasing. Tournaments are being held all over the country and tournament play has nothing to do with pot limits, a purchase is not necessary. He asked how a grocery store was allowed to give over $100. The industry, he said, has always been kind of a stepchild and it is time for recognition • -1- that the gaming business is a viable one and why not be more interested in their success than their failure? People would be upset if tournaments are stopped. The Commission is to protect the public as well as to push down the gamers, it would be different if the State stopped them, but in 7 years he has never known the State to say anything. Kent Frampton, who agreed with all items, felt that the letter had nothing to do with any of the three establishments and that they shouldn't have found out about it through the news media. He pointed out that the letter is stamped "Vacation City" and felt we ought to try to have a vacation city-- gambling is a vacation aspect --they are all in the tourist market and sell entertainment. He was upset that the information that prompted the letter was done by a detective who didn't understand what he was talking about. He asked for a copy of his report and nothing was really said in it; codes were specified but not talked about;is a tournament really a violation of the law? The word "aggregation" isn't used in the report. Neier responded that the gaming rules state that no prize shall exceed $100. The preliminary investigation was done without talking to anyone in the establishment; the detective came in, put together the report, read some newspaper ads and wrote up something that said tournaments should be stopped or be taken to the County Attorney for prosecution when it hasn't even been decided whether we are talking about games or what kind of games; they can be combined and limit can be raised to over $100 which gives away less than • $100 per hand. Frampton said that Chief Stefanie quotes that whether the tournaments violate the moral issue of the Gaming Code, he wants to keep gaming clean and uncomplicated and the way laws are written that cannot be done. He cant find rules not allowing tournaments if prize money is limited to $100, he doesn't think anyone has exceeded that amount. Chief specifies that all firms advertise more than $100 prizes, no rule says you cant advertise that way, the rules disallow more than $100 per hand. He gives away two $100 prizes to the tournament winner -who plays him for $100 and he lets you win and plays again for another $100 and could continue in this manner, but is not giving away more than $100 per hand. Laws aren't written specifically enough, but don't say that he cant advertise giving away $500 at $100 a time -clarification must be made. He could advertise a tournament to give away fifty 1922 silver dollars to the winner which could be sold for $5001 Frampton stated that he has not done anything that he didn't agree not to do at the June 12 Commission meeting. He talked with Ted Lympus and discussed all that was brought up at that meeting and hasn't given out over $100 per hand since then. Kent felt that Lympus didn't particularly want to get involved with this in the first place and this goes back to the Police Department, detectives and the Gaming Commission understanding rules and regulations. Schindler suggested that things be kept at that point and not cloud up the • issue by saying that we are coming down on tourism and Visitors City and the people playing the games, we simply want State laws followed. -2- 0 Frampton asked if he would legally be allowed to advertise a $400 prize tournament, $100 per hand. He does this every Saturday after tournaments but this was not written up this way in the detective's statement. Neier stated that the least of what could have happened did happen, the people involved were asked to attend this meeting to clear the air and to have them tell the Commission what actually was going on in the games. The purpose of the investigation was not to bring charges but to call those people involved to a meeting. If $100 per game per hand is played as Mr. Frampton indicates, he has no problem with it. Chief Stefanie stated that he had a big problem with that ... Mr. Frampton said that he would play $100 a hand and let him win every time ... I don't like that! That is not gaming, poker or combining hands through accrued gaming prize, that is winning an ultimate $100 prize, it is not simple and it is not clean. Frampton stated that it was not supposed to be simple. He asked if Mr. Frampton read the gaming regulations regarding the section on advertising and public relations in accordance with decency, dignity, good taste, honesty and inoffensiveness, yet he says the advertisements which Sgt. Stotts read weren't misleading, didn"t lend themselves to being misconstrued, didn't lead the public to believe that you are giving an ultimate prize far in excess of $100 a game. Frampton pointed out that the ad states plural prizes. • Stotts questioned the ad behind the gaming table that guarantees 60% first place, $200 first prize, $100 second prize? Frampton responded that these were not established, only listed for patrons to know what they would try to do. He suggested that it would have been a good idea for the detective to ask what they were doing before the news media sounded like all sorts of things were wrong. Neier agreed with Chief Stefanie that that sort of advertising was not in good faith. Frampton stated that the day after receiving Mayor Kennedy's letter, he changed his ads to read $100 maximum win each hand. Councilman Schindler asked how people are allowed to win and was told by Kent that half way through a hand, his is discarded; there is no law that says he can't do this. Schindler said that was bending the law. Stefanie said this was violating the exact wording of the law which says games shall not be combined in any manner so as to increase winnings to be given away by consecutive thrown games an excess of $100 prize. Further discussion of definition of games, state codes and opinions followed. Chief Stefanie warned that if the opinion of the Gaming Commission is to stop, then this practice will be stopped. -3- • 0 Frampton stated that he was not completely familiar with the Kalispell Gaming Commission but was on the Missoula Commission as tavern rep for 2 years, is well aware of Missoula and State laws. He recommends putting someone from the gaming industry and perhaps someone from the coin op industry on the Commission to help solve misunderstandings. This is done in Missoula, with a PD rep communicating with gaming firms. Mayor Kennedy asked if the same games were played in Missoula and was told they were. The Commission in Missoula, in fact, used system money for educating the detective in gaming business. Art Lindlief agreed with this idea, said there had been such a rep on County Commission. He mentioned a very large tournament at Billings and said he had written the State Attorney re rate games. His firm is running a $3,000 prize point tournament in December, stating that it had nothing to do with a hand, but only an accumulation of points. He questioned such things as the Safeway Bingo giving away money without a gaming license. Chief Stefanie gave the County Attorney's explanation: the difference is that no money changes hands for the prizes. Discussion of what aggregation 'means in gaming business: Red McQuade said that without regulation the total was divided between winners; if under reg 50 people can share. He feels that the State wants the industry to take on their own destination, if we like the State law why don't we put it in the Kalispell law? Chief S. said that we must abide by State law -they do not enforce it because the State does not have the personnel to do so, that is up to us, but they cannot be ignored. Each County Attorney is the interpreter of gaming laws. Art Lindlief questioned the legality of the Gaming Commission entity. Councilman Grainger asked and was told that County Attorney Lympus was asked to this meeting but was unable to attend. Bill Lincoln said that his establishment is just getting started in gaming but hopes through cooperation the gaming potential can be utilized in Kalispell. He asks that if a problem occurs, that someone come and talk with him, he will change it and won't allow gaming to red flag his industry. Bill doesn't want clarification on gaming rules through court cases and hopes this meeting is a step towards cooperation. Mayor Kennedy agreed. Art Lindlief said that things like dealer's license, fees should be taken to Council agenda and gaming people will attend meetings. Mayor Kennedy asked what action the Commission wanted to take. Chief Stefanie moved that the Gaming Commission Chairman direct all holders of gaming licenses within the City of Kalispell to cease from conducting any kind of tournament immediately until a written decision is made by the County Attorney advising as to the legality of conducting tournaments. Seconded by Councilman Schindler. Councilman Grainger asked what is to be -4- E done in the meantime, if it is not illegal how can it be stopped and was told that would be the County Attorney's decision. Frampton asked how it could be explained to the County Attorney when no one completely understands what is being done. If they are allowed to continue, questions can be resolved by evaluation, otherwise 15-20 people will be out of work and license fees won't be doing them any good while they wait. Mayor Kennedy suggested that the motion be tabled until a week from today and in the meantime requested a written explanation of gaming procedures from the establishments. He will also request an opinion from the County Attorney. Red McQuade expressed concern that this would be waving a red flag by involving Attorney Lympus and feels we should take care of our own affairs. Bill Lincoln agrees with tabling the motion, don't penalize until it is established that something is wrongly being done. Chief Stefanie felt that we would be left holding the bag, that Mr. Frampton should have cleared the games and procedures with the Commission before starting it. He doesn't think it quite fair that he ran proposed games through the Missoula PD and not here! He stated that he felt Mr. Lincoln could attest to his department's cooperation with the Bulldog licensing process. Others know that the PD has tried to avoid major confrontations and taking low key approaches to the whole thing and he feels that needs to be read into the • record, if nothing else. Buck Torstenson agreed and complimented the police force for the Outlaw Inn and he has high regard for the efficiency of the department. Art Lindlief seconded that sentiment. Councilman Grainger suggested that Attorney Lympus be asked to attend the next meeting if possible. He would rather hear from the County Attorney before he makes a decision. Councilman Schindler said that he agreed with Chief Stefanie that Mr. Frampton could have laid all of this out before now. Frampton said that this was done at the June 12 meeting, and he hasn't changed anything since that agreement; every tournament has been limited to $100 and he was amazed to get Mayor Kennedy's letter. He talked with City Attorney Neier to ask what he had done wrong, apparently the detective didn't like his advertising. He presented copies of his ads as well as brochures on gaming tournaments. Mayor Kennedy asked the proprietors to have their reports to him tomorrow. Councilman Palmer asked that questions be addressed to the County Attorney as to under what conditions and perimeters can the dealers advertise. They need guidelines as to what they can do and what conditions rather than this or that being legal or illegal. City Attorney Neier stated that regulations on advertising are in the City gaming regulations, this is up to the Commission rather than the County Attorney. He can advise as to the legality of tournaments. Palmer stated that we are telling people what they can't do, he would prefer to tell them under what perimeters they can do such and such. -5- Grainger said that no one has complained to him about anything wrong being done and he can't say anything is misleading because he doesn't know if the games are legal or illegal. Chief Stefanie said that at this point he would not object to tabling the motion to a later date. Councilman Schindler moved to table the motion and this was seconded by Councilman Grainger, all voted aye, motion carried. Mayor Kennedy wanted it made clear that that the Gaming Commission is for the aid of the gaming industry. Dealer Violations: Mayor Kennedy announced that there were a couple of dealer violations that must be discussed. Chief Stefanie reported that two reports were made for dealers who were not wearing their licenses while at the tables and this would require Commission action. On September 5th, Stuart John McQuade was reported for not wearing his license while dealing at the Outlaw Inn, when asked about it, he picked the license from a tray in the table. On September 10th, Doniell Lea Birk was observed dealing without a license and when asked about it replied that she had a temporary license and was dealing for another girl on dinner break. She was relieved from the game and stated that her license was at home. • A hearing on these matters will be set up to discuss these violations at the next Commission meeting, which will be held on Monday, September 22. Councilman Schindler moved to adjourn, seconded by Councilman Grainger, meeting adjourned at 4:45 P.M. Markie Sabol, Recording Secretary 01