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07-24-85 Street & Alley Comm MinutesPIP • July 24, 1985 STREET AND ALLEY COMMITTEE 3:00 P.M. Chairman Palmer and Councilmen Saverud, Nystul, Manning and Ruiz present. DPW Hammer, Parks Superintendent Drent, Water and Sewer Superintendent Hyde, Street Superintendent Clements, City Surveyor Zavodny, Construction Inspector VanDyke, Mike Fraser, engineer, and Roger Hopkins also in attendance. Citizens present at the meeting concerning 5th Avenue West included: Marlene and Glen Allen, Constance J. Clark, Martin Huggins, L. George Rhodes, Norma Jeanne Gates, Gay Moddrell, and Mike Dore(?). Individuals present for the part of the meeting concerning Depot Loop Road included Ed Gallagher from Community Development, Duane Larson from the Fire Department, Police Chief Stefanic, Ed Johnson and Larry Brazda from the State Highway Department, Dick Hackendahl from Chamber of Commerce, and Dennis Carver, engineer. 5TH AVENUE WEST - Chairman Palmer reviewed the comments from the Public Hearing, the design from the State Department of Interial Roads showing coming down 5th and tracking back on 7th,_,or the other way, and summarized the voiced concerns as being the trees, parking around the high school, and traffic flow. There was discussion of street width and the illustration provided by Mike Fraser was examined. Extended discussion of distances of trees from curbing using detailed list from Parks Superintendent Drent. Mr. Huggins disagreed and provided his own measurements. • C. Nystul suggested dividing 5th in three sections by traffic: Blocks 1 and 2 should be 41' wide, from the high school south could be 39', and the area from 2nd to 6th, particularly the 300 and 400 blocks would need some- thing done to minimize the impact - perhaps thinning of trees. C. Palmer indicated that the only alternative would be to make 1 parking lane on both 5th and 7th, and one-way traffic. Two 12' lanes and parking would make a 33' street. Discussion of major traffic control at 5th and 7th and Center and 1-way from 2nd to 11th. C. Saverud pointed out that half the investment is made with 7th redone several years ago, and it does tie in with 11th. This might help minimize the traffic for the high school and Elrod. C. Nystul questioned what would need to be done between Center and 2nd - a traffic engineers opinion on the effect on the overall traffic flow is needed. Need comprehension of the number of vehicles per day and where they're going. He would prefer, in the context of long-range planning, to make 5th 41' wide now rather than re -doing it 10 years from now. DPW Hammer asked how the citizens of 7th are going to feel if that is made a one-way and traffic is increased by 400% (based on 1980 study). C. Palmer indicated that the one-way streets solution is not a good solution but a good compromise. For those concerned about traffic a one-way is easier to cross than a two-way. DPW Hammer indicated that money has been set aside for a traffic light • at 5th and Center, but then the question is where the traffic goes from there. He suggested that since trees seem to be the bottom line the street should be designed so as to include a 10' lane addition at a later date with trees planted accordingly now. J STREET AND ALLEY COMMITTEE • July 24, 1985 Page 2 C. Ruiz pointed out that if the City had followed the Master Plan it would not have allowed the Mall in the first place. The plan also recommended the improvement of 5th at the existing width. C. Saverud pointed out that if widened 5th will become a mini -bypass, and the City has not had much luck in controlling truck traffic in the past. Mike Fraser pointed out that a 12' lane carries full capacity - decreasing width increases traffic problems. 10' lanes carry only 81% of the traffic that a 12' lane does. C. Palmer polled the councilmen for their opinions. C. Ruiz said leave 5th width as is and do not increase the traffic. C. Manning said keep with the least amount of traffic as possible - and if needed to do that use one -ways on 5th and 7th. DPW Hammer indicated he prefered to wait to talk to the traffic experts who would be present for the Depot Loop Road part of the meeting. C. Palmer said he preferred 5th not be used for major traffic flow. C. Saverud preferred some widening for two 12' lanes and parking on one side. C. Palmer explained to the citizens in attendance the procedure of the Committee making a recommendation to Council and Council then making the final decision. He also told them that the time to speak is at the Council meeting. The Committee went on to look at other agenda items and came back to this issue when the traffic experts were available. There was discussion of the fact that it is hard to look at just 5th without looking at the traffic needs for the whole area around the Mall. The Highway Department indicated that they could get the 1984 traffic pattern information from Helena. Also Al Koch is supposed to have helpful information. DPW Hammer is to get facts and figures together for a meeting of Street and Alley on July 29, 1985 at 3:00 P.M. Sewer and Water Committee is also invited to attend. BIDS FOR DECORATIVE STREET LIGHT INSTALLATION - Two bids were received, $29,156.75 from Harp, $23,200.00 from C. Powell Electric. City Attorney Neier was asked to check the contracts. C. Saverud made a motion to accept the lowest bidder. C. Nystul seconded and the motion passed. C. Palmer asked that he be provided with the total figure for the street light project. ORDERING OF CURBS - 3RD AVENUE WEST AND CENTER - Committee felt that they needed to look into the traffic and the work on Center in relation to this. This is not a feeder to the Mall. C. Palmer questioned doing anything about it when the City crews are overloaded with work. DPW Hammer felt it should be dealt with because it is in the vicinity of the Mall. C. Nystul made a motion that parallel parking signs be put up and wait until Center Street is done to deal with it. Committee agreed. HAARR CURB CUT - Committee agreed to allow the curb cut. • PAINTING OF HOUSE NUMBERS ON CURBS - Request from individual to sell service of painting house numbers on curb to residents. Committee felt that it would be better to encourage better house numbers that could be seen year-round rather than curb numbers that would not be visible during the winter. Committee consensus was not to allow. STREET AND ALLEY COMMITTEE isJuly 24, 1985 Page 3 DEPOT LOOP ROAD - DPW Hammer gave some history and explained the maps provided by Dennis Carver. The meeting was to look at the closure of the Loop Road rather than the design. There was extensive discussion of fire routes and possible alternatives. It was pointed out that having no parking close to the radius of 2nd Street East would improve turning. Discussion of pre-empting lights with green going north and red going south and other possibilities. Again the need for a study of the future traffic on Center Street is needed. Traffic conjestion on Main discussed at length. C. Palmer asked for a letter from the Fire Department indicating their position on the closure of Depot Loop Road and their first and second choices for alternates. Duane Larson indicated that the Fire Department will drive the routes talked about and come up with a solution. The Committee will recommend to Council that the Depot Loop Road access be terminated. Committee will agree with Community Development design. CALL FOR BIDS FOR CENTER STREET - The Committee will recommend to Council that they authorize the call for bids for Center Street. The closing of 1st Alley West at Center was discussed. Dennis Carver has designed Center with the alley closed. The bank is working out alternatives. • BUDGETING FOR 5TH AVENUE WEST - DPW Hammer to indicate what funds are available from where, and what is needed. C. Palmer told him to ask his questions on paper and show the answers. A Street and Alley Committee meeting is set for Monday, July 29, at 3:00 P.M. and the Sewer and Water Committee is invited to attend. C. Palmer asked for an agenda of the decisions that need to be made to get these projects moving, including 1st Alley West and all streets north of the Mall site, as well as 5th Avenue West. GARBAGE CHARGES - C. Nystul pointed out that in 1982 the Committee had agreed that there was no way to equitably determine whose cans were in the alley and that charges were to be based on a per residence basis. It is not at present being done that way. C. Nystul will review and summarize the issue by the next meeting. JOB DESCRIPTION FOR SIDE ARM LOADER OPERATOR - DPW Hammer asked to give a copy to all Council members. Time is of the essence. He reported on the progress on the truck and the containers. After discussion it was decided that Gerry Edmondson would be a good individual to mark where the containers are supposed to go in the alleys. C. Palmer asked for a report on naked streets and dates for paving. DPW Hammer answered. Question of temporary help in the Street Department • discussed. Mayor approval needed. Acting Mayor Ruiz will need to sign in Mayor McDowell's absence. Question concerning the use of more mix than the design called for on 12th Street West. Bill Clements must answer. DPW Hammer to bring written answer. If there is a problem DPW Hammer indicated that using the prodder would solve it.