08-22-86 S&W Comm MinutesAugust 22, 1986 SEWER AND WATER COMMITTEE 8:00 A.M.
40 Chairman Nystul and Councilmen Hafferman and Ruiz in attendance. DPW
Hammer, Sewer and Water Superintendent Hyde, and Meter Installer Carmen Franklin
also present. (Due to an oversight Mayor Kennedy was not notified of the
meeting and therefore was not in attendance.)
METER INSTALLATION PROGRAM - C. Nystul asked S/W Supt. Hyde to explain
his staffing concept in light of the budget worksheet showing the funding
for the meter installation program for 4 months only. Supt. Hyde said the
funding was shown through the end of October only. It was drawn up that way
based on some discussions between Supt. Hyde, DPW Hammer and Mayor Kennedy.
The perception was that the meter program was a temporary program that had
been needed but should be phased out. He said he did not agree with the statement
that it is temporary position, but felt that it should become permanent and
an employee should be assigned there year around, but how to achieve that
program and all the other ends is up for discussion. He said he had been
looking at the staffing recommendations Jeff made several years ago and he
had recommended that there be 6 full time employees. Supt. Hyde said he agreed
with that in general and felt that there was enough work to keep 6 people
busy on a year-round business. He broke the positions down as follows:
1 = Well operation and building maintenance (Gene Garner)
1 = Customer service and meters (Good PR, approx. 300 meter problems/year)
1 = Meter Reader
2 = System maintenance (Valves, hydrants, main breaks, general complaints)
• 1 = Working foreman (Independent, administration, fill-in) (Steve Cox)
Supt. Hyde explained each of these positions and the need for them in
detail. C. Ruiz asked who would fill each position, and Supt. Hyde stated
it would have to be according to senority. Present staff includes Steve Cox,
Gene Garner, Becky Glidden, Randy Vickhammer, Jeff Wolf, Mike Hall, Carmen
Franklin, and Joyce LeDuc. He stated that the above positions were minimum
needs - a total of 6 poeple. That is two less than what we have and according
to the law the two with the least senority would have to be let go.
C. Ruiz asked if Joyce (Meter Reader) was going to be put on full time.
Supt. Hyde explained that she was already full time. C. Ruiz asked if she
wasn't working only half days and wasn't that what we were paying her for.
Supt. Hyde said she was paid half out of sewer, half out of water. C. Ruiz
asked if she was paid out of the office when she worked there. Supt. Hyde
said she does do office work and has now been moved down to the Water Warehouse.
She is no longer filling in for Marki and doing office work in City Hall.
DPW Hammer said that that problem had been discussed about a year ago - the
problem of having the meter reader working 5 weeks reading meters and three
weeks doing clerk's work. He had tried to change that but Mayor McDowell
had said they needed her in the clerk's office and put her back there again.
Since Mayor Kennedy arrived and understood the situation she has been moved
out of the City Hall office and clerk and receptionist duties.
Supt. Hyde explained that the 6 positions listed were the year-round
minimum and two less than what he had now. Would be possible to have a larger
• staff gainfully employed year-round, but he saw this list as the bare minimum.
During the summer, in addition to this minimum, there are alot of taps and
construction, and he would like to add two persons. Many of this could be
split between the maintenance people and the meter person. The biggest addition
SEWER AND WATER COMMITTEE
Meter Installation Program
41 August 22, 1986
Page 2
to the summer workload is main installation. Last year several blocks were
put in, this year more were scheduled and they did put in a block of 4th Avenue
West North and some down at South Meadows. All the other blocks were contracted
out. If the Water Department were to install mains themselves in earnest,
a crew of four persons devoted to main installation only would be needed.
But this year only $75,000 is devoted to main replacement and 3rd Avenue East
is going to take up a good portion of that.
DPW Hammer: This budget is at 1.1 million dollars and there is only
$700,000 worth of revenue, so when it was submitted it was considered preliminary
to go over what we could and could not do. By the time items were cut there
was only about $25,000 left for water main replacement. Supt. Hyde remembered
going from $187,000 to $75,000. C. Nystul said we had $220,000 the City is
paying for the mains outside of the tax increment on the 5th Avenue West project,
and that pretty well wipes out the main replacement program for the current
fiscal year. C. Hafferman questioned the amount and the fact that there was
then none left to replace mains elsewhere. C. Nystul said there is not alot
left. C. Hafferman asked about staffing for main replacement in the summertime
and Sutp. Hyde responded that you would need an operator, someone driving
truck, and two people on the ground -'one in the ditch and one running materials
back and forth. C. Hafferman asked if there had not been enough money this
• year to put in any more than were done, and if there was a need for more to
be done. Sutp. Hyde explained that we try to replace the ones in the streets
that are being reconstructed because you don't want to do a street and leave
a 50 - 100 year old main under a new street. This year have been fighting
a pretty•tough schedule with the work north of the mall, but have contracted
out when there was a tight schedule. Supt. Hyde said not only is the department
understaffed but also underequipped. The contractors who are putting the
mains in have trucks, excavator (much larger than our equipment) - and if
we had comparable equipment we could do a comparable job. As it is when we
try to do the job with the manpower and equipment we have we look bad.
C. Hafferman said she was not in favor of firing people to save money
because she sees the City pouring money down arathole. She felt it didn't
make sense to lay off people when the department could keep them busy. She
asked if Supt. Hyde had looked at the budget and couldn't find any money to
keep these people on. He said there was some places for savings: he said
one of the largest chunks was for electricity and he would like to spend some
time looking for alternatives for savings there. None of the other things
are able to be pared back much at all. Telemetry and the water warehouse
were cut out. Cutting out materials funding at the same time cuts back on
the work that would keep the crew busy.
Carmen Franklin asked if she could interject something and stated that
when Jeff recommended staffing he did recommend 6, and that before she and
Michael Hall were hired there were seven employees, but when they came there
• were 700 meters that needed replacing - so the job was not being done. Out
of the last five gate boxes that they had located to turn off (in the middle
of the street) three have been buried under the asphalt and two didn't work,
which says that the maintenance has not been done. As far as she could see
there has not been an active program for maintenance of gate valves or main
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• Meter Installation Program
August 22, 1986
Page 3
valves. When she talked to Gene about that he said if one doesn't work you
just go down a block or so to one that does. She stated that you don't save
money by letting the water system go. She had talked to someone in Whitefish
and they exercise their fire hydrants twice a year - Kalispell doesn't do
theirs at all. C. Hafferman said she thought that Carmen was right - we will
be losing money if we don't do maintenance that is necessary. ' She stated
that Carmen and Mike had made a good case for really trying to find the money
for keeping them on. She said that in talking to Carmen and Mike, Carmen
said that they did not understand that the job was temporary, but she told
them that was the breaks, it was in the past and couldn't be fixed, however,
she didn't feel that the maintenance had been done in the past and one of
these days all hell was going to break loose under the streets of Kalispell
and the City was really going to be in trouble - because the money spent on
5th Avenue and the budget being short so there is no money for maintenance.
It doesn't make sense to lay off people and not do maintenance. When complaints
were mentioned, C. Hafferman_went on, one of the clerks she works with in
the bookstore owned a big house on the east side, moved out and rented it,
and immediately the water bill doubled. She came to City Hall and questioned
it, and the response was not that someone would be over to check to see if
there was a leak, or that the rates had gone up - but only "Well, I guess
that is the way it is." and took her money. She told her to come back and
• ask that someone come and check to see if there was a leak. The PR work that
they are doing is important - one of the things needed to be done is to respond
just like the police and fire. If there is any other place to save money
she felt that Carmen and Mike should be retained. She didn't feel that Joyce
could keep up with replacing worn out meters and said she agreed with Carmen
that when meters wear out they quit reading and the City loses money when
it is estimated. Another good example is where a man built 4 townhouses
(Ponderosa). The plumber came in to put the meters in and called City Hall
and called City Hall and nobody came to his response. He put in jumpers and
they were in for two years and nobody got paid. No one got a bill and the
City didn't get paid. That is how you lose money - by not having people to
do the things that need to be done.
Supt. Hyde agreed that the meter program is important and necessary, _
and to have a person devoted to it year around. DPW Hammer pointed out that
this is no different than the AI's or any other department. The minutes of
the Sewer and Water Department in December of 1984 state that this was a temporary
position, to clarify that point - it could last several months or two years.
Steve, who did most of the research on this, said that two installers would
within 5 years have the meter program up to date. They have been here about
two years. They were told it was temporary positions. Secondly, the 243
meters that were being estimated have been taken care of. Just like the Street
Department and the Garbage Department - nobody likes to lay anybody off, but
it comes down to how much money do we have to do this job. He agreed with
her that more were needed in the Water Department, but this is a bad year
• because of the work on 5th and using up the cash reserves. In the Water Department
funds there are only about 5 line items that could be changed, and even those
can't. Water warehouse ($100,000) has been scratched, telemetry ($65,000)
has been scratched, meter is $19,000 and hydrants is $20,000 and main replacement
is down to about zip. Take a look at each line item and they are down to
SEWER AND WATER COMMITTEE
Meter Installation Program •
August 22, 1986
Page 4
as low as possible. A few hundred dollars might be picked up here and there
but that is all. The money just isn't there this year.
C. Hafferman agreed but said that her general attitude is when she hears
"but that doesn't come out of the general fund" - to her wasting money is
wasting money no matter what pocket it comes out of, and then you lay off
people because you have wasted money. She said she felt that what was needed
was a finanacial director. You are nit picking over whether they are temporary
or not - whether they knew it or not, they claim they didn't, that is the
rules of the game. How many houses are there in Kalispell - if this is supposed
to be a temporary job, you figured that in 5 years every meter that was old
would be replaced, and they have been here for two years, so the program isn't
over yet.
Carmen said when they started and talked with Mayor Mc Dowell he did
say that this was a pilot program and you can interpret that.to be temporary.
He did say that it would be reviewed after one year. Last December she and
Mike started on a chart. They have a map that would give the Committee a
visual idea of what was accomplished last year. All of the meters that were
changed out. She said that she didn't know that anybody present had seen
that, or that anybody had reviewed the material they had prepared. She thought
• all that would be done in February. Supt. Hyde said that he had reviewed
it and prepared a memo to the Mayor summarizing the accomplishments and recommending
that the meter program be allowed to continue. He thought that staffing -wise
it was reasonable to go from two to one - have one full-time person. When
he talked to the Mayor and DPW Hammer about that they didn't support the program
even enough to have one person full time, but he did offer that information
and that was my recommendation.
C. Hafferman said to Supt. Hyde that the people in his department ought
to know that so that it does not come as a sudden shock that Carmen and Mike
are to be laid off. If that is the memo that was given out earlier then the
people in your department ought to know that. You have a personnel problem
when you cut people off short. They should be warned ahead of time so they
can go look for a job - not at the last minute when the budget comes up to
say "You're going to lose your job." It seems this is a problem in City Hall
all the time - this isn't the first example. They should have the option
of going out to look. Like the one kid said, I wouldn't have bought a house
three years ago if I had known I was going to be laid off.
Supt. Hyde said he knew there had been alot of indecision and changing
of positions regarding what is going to happen - sometimes seems like a yoyo.
Carmen asked about the $279,000 mentioned in an earlier meeting which
was set aside in an emergency fund. Is that an amount that is set aside every
year? It was explained that this was not a yearly budgeted amount but an
isare
fund, and that it used to be about $700,000. Good cash reserves
are necessary for capital improvements and emergencies - and really should
be about a million dollars. If the City had had a good reserve they wouldn't
have had so much trouble with the funding for 5th Avenue West. C. Hafferman
asked if nothing had been saved in the past. C. Ruiz said they had been trying
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• Meter Installation Program
August 22, 1986
Page 5
to save it, but this is what happened to it. Since he came on they had lost
about $400,000. In other words we are going backwards. Supt. Hyde said that
when they totaled up the proposed spending for this year it exceeded the
anticipated revenue and all the money on hand - it was a full blown budget
with all needs identified, and then had to be cut back to fit the anticipated
revenues of $736,000 and the cash on hand of $379,000, adding up to 1.1 million.
The original budget was 1.15 million, so there was actually enough to break
the water funds and leave us $50,000 in the hole.
C. Nystul said the City has substantial pressing needs within the system
such as the telemetry system, which was installed in the late 40's or early
50's. That is a serious problem because of the way the system runs and it
needs to be updated and made more reliable. He asked Supt. Hyde if he would
do hydro -flushing in the winter time, and the response was negative. And
valve operation can't be done in the winter? It depends - if you find a valve
box full of water and frozen there isn't much you can do. C.-Nystul asked
if there wasn't a risk of turning the valve and starting a leak and having
to dig down through the frost to repair. You don't do valve exercising in
the winter, but maintenance like finding the boxes and cleaning them out could
be done. During the winter alot of the general maintenance cannot be done.
C. Nystul said that then the people who are doing fairweather maintenance
• can during the winter time be working on meters and meter problems. Supt.
Hyde said that if there was enough meter work during the winter several people
could be working on that as necessary. C. Nystul asked if he was contemplating
even further reduction through the winter - would that be a recommendation?
Supt. Hyde said the six people he had recommended, one is devoted to meter
reading, one to well operation and building maintenance. The customer service
needs a person during the winter - not only replacing meters but working with
people on why their bills are so high. That takes up alot of time and it
is a real blunder not to do deal with those people. They complain when the
bill comes in, and if you don't go out and give them the attention then you
don't hear from them for another 60 days. Then when the next bill comes in
they still complain. At least three of the positions will be kept busy year
around. The other three will also, but like system maintenance will have
to change during the winter months. It is possible but he would not recommend
going any lower than 6 employees.
DPW Hammer asked what six full time employees are going to do from November
to March or April depending on the weather. Supt. Hyde said he had explained
three. The other three: two are lumped into system maintenance - valves,
hydrants, main breaks. That is something not talked aobut yet. Last year
was a mild year - there were only a few, but nothing that would require keeping
a crew on all winter to deal with main breaks. He checked just to make sure
that wasn't a freak year, and pulled a work order book off the shelf: winter
of 1983-84 there were 5 breaks and the labor totaled 64 hours in 6 months
for main breaks. Based on last year and this sample you can't justify keeping
people on waiting for main breaks. He felt he would have to rely on Steve
is as working forman to delegate tasks to the remaining two system maintenance
people. There are alot of miscellaneous tasks done on a day to day basis that
would need to be done, but it would be either his responsibility or Steve's
to keep the crew busy. Alot of time needs to be devoted to the wastewater
SEWER AND WATER COMMITTEE
• Meter Installation Program
August 22, 1986
Page 6
treatment plant, and this year would like to devote even more time and will
have to rely on Steve more to delegate tasks and keep people busy. Jeff Hughes
had a memo listing equipment maintenance as 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year,
and did not include main breaks. DPW Hammer explained that at that time the
Water Department was maintaining their own vehicles but they got out of that
but having the Central Garage do the work. That is why there is a transfer
of $10,000 or so to the shop.
Supt. Hyde said that one task needed during the winter is shoveling the
snow out from around hydrants, but there might be a dry spell with no snow.
C. Nystul asked if that was not a good job for the Fire Department and there
was general assent that it was.
C. Ruiz said he didn't think this was their job. C. Hafferman said it
came up for discussion. He said he realized it had gone around but they knew
what the budget is. They did_ this to the Street Department apd they took
it out of their hands and it was an administrative matter, and the Mayor wrote
the letters, and he protested at a meeting because he never got a copy, and
now all of a sudden they are pointing a finger at us (the Committee) and saying
it is our decision, and it is not our decision. He stated that he was not
an administrator and he wasn't going to be one - he was a policy maker. The
dobudget is there and you people have made the recommendations. That is all
I have to say, he said.
Carmen stated that when the last meeting had been held it was something
that was talked about casually at the end of the meeting. A week later when
they asked Supt. Hyde about it he had just come from the Mayor's office, and
the Mayor had asked him about the situation and had said "Let's keep them."
So they have been back and forth - in limbo. C. Ruiz said that the Committee
was not responsible for what had been said. DPW Hammer said it was probably
just like the situation with the AI's - you don't want to lay anybody off
and you try to keep them, and wait till the last minute and try to find any
way you can to deep them, and when it gets downtothe bottom line the budget
dictates how many people we have working for us. C. Ruiz said the recommendation
of the Police Chief was to keep the program, so the Committee went with that.
It was the Committee's idea to cut it. This is a different situation - the
recommendation is coming from the department heads. C. Nystul pointed out
that if they had their preferences there would be no question about keeping
Carmen and Mike because they have done a good job and there has been good
feedback and PR from the public. It is just that the senority. When Main
Street was rebuilt the Water Department came to the Committee and said they
needed one person, a temporary, to assist in the hook-ups on Main Street.
Main Street came and went and that person is still on the staff. The Water
Department came to the Committee and said we need two more people to take
care of the backlog in the meter program, so now we have three more people
in the Water Department than we had in the past. Carmen commented that it
• was kind of a trade-off because they didn't hire anyone for.Bill Mauer's job.
C. Nystul said they are still two over. The water system has not expanded,
the City has not grown that much in the last few years and the system has
not expanded over what Joe Longpree and Roscoe and Ivan used to take care
of. He didn't doubt that there is system maintenance such as valves, etc.
SEWER AND WATER COMMITTEE
Meter Installation Program
August 22, 1986
Page 7
that has not been taken care of. One of the things that Jeff got in the budget
was for the hydraulic valve exerciser, which we have. Carmen said it was not used. But C. Nystul said we are gaining slow but sure.
Supt. Hyde stated that when he drewupthis summary he kept personalities
out of it and attempted to define manpower needs and establish a number for
what was needed. One thing that has not been talked about regarding personalities
is Joyce. She is pregnant and expecting in December and there will be at
least a temporary position there. She will be taking maternity leave and
it is hard to predict whether she will be coming back or not. At this point
she believes she is. My experience has been that that can change. There
is one position with a high degree of uncertainty. That should be encouraging
to Carmen and Mike. She will take 90 days maternity leave. DPW Hammer asked
if they were not considering using the present staff and Supt. Hyde responded
that if they were not busy with other things they could do that. He said
he would have to rely on Steve to makesureno one is standing around.
C. Hafferman had to leave for work but stated that she thought if there
were any way possible Carmen and Mike should be kept. C. Ruiz said that the
problem to him was that the City is not getting enough revenue. The rates
are too low - seeing the rates from other cities show that Kalispell is not
• charging enough. He compared his phone bill. C. Hafferman said rates were
not raised as they should have been and so when a big jump is taken everyone
screams. If you are not taking care of the water system and it is not being
maintained . . .
Supt. Hyde stated that in looking for places to pare the budget back,
he has $20,000 for replacing hydrants, and we are putting in. Perhaps if
you didn't want to devote that specifically to hydrants you could take it
from the 5th Avenue West project. C. Nystul reminded him that last winter
there were 3 or 4 fire hydrant failures at fire scenes. It was agreed that
the hydrants need to be replaced. If ever there is a major failure the City
is going to be in trouble. C. Ruiz stated again that the revenue must go
up to cover the costs. Supt. Hyde said that the problem with raising the
rates was that there would then be more and more people complaining and that _
would take more manpower.
Supt. Hyde mentioned that Mike Hall would have attended the meeting if
he had been in town, but he was not. His absence is not an indication of
a lack of interest.
aj g
0
The meeting broke up with regrets about losing two good employees.